Just ran into this essay recently , and took some time to work slowly all the way through it. Loved the John Donne Quote!
"stay away from most lit mags"... I totally get that, but as a reader looking for guidance, I'm wondering if you have any specific recommendations outside of the "most"?
I work full time and have kids, so I read as I can, not as I would-- I have enjoyed Image, Plough Quarterly, and Dappled Things with at least some level of regularity--
Such interesting thoughts! I've had pieces published in lit mags and it is a great feeling, but fleeting! I've also had experiences making publications (zines or journals) with friends and writers I admire. This is also fun and edifying. I've had a book of poems published by a press that I didn't have a personal connection with, and that felt validating as a writer-- I sometimes worry that having work published by friends "doesn't count" or that they're just publishing me because they're my friend--which isn't so bad really. haha
We've only been on Substack for a week but it has been so freeing to have an immediate outlet for my work and have creative control over how it's "published" and shared. I am working on writing a novel that I hope to have traditionally published, and while I'm in the writing and querying trenches, I think that sharing on Substack will be much more fun and creatively rewarding than submitting to a bunch of lit mags-- like you said it takes so much time and money and often feels scammy.
Glad to have read your thoughts and to be connected on Substack! Since we're new I'll drop our latest post below. :) My husband's a painter so we're sharing paintings and ponderings--dispatches from our search for the sublime.
Yeah the thing is about lit mags, every time I pick one up to read it, I can barely stay awake. What’s the deal there? American ones are worse, and almost all charging to submit? How is that different from a scam? (Currently waiting on approx. 20 rejections into my inbox but fuck if I paid for them!)
I started Spirit in Motion Press (not even a proper press (yet, God willing) but a substack to finally publish my fiction that I've been too scared to for years). This really hit--I do want the community and when I finally build the community (haha) share their works. I honestly don't know what it will look like.
But I'm glad I stumbled across this as I was considering trying to submit to these sort of magazines. I thought they would give me validation. I'm wondering now.
Joffre, what do you think about submitting to lit mags for income? Is it inappropriate or somehow demeaning for the writer to seek out payment for his labors? What you write about this is romantic, and I agree with much of what you say (I usually do!) but what about a guy making some money to pay his car insurance for the family van by selling some short stories?
I have shared poetry at open mics, and found the same thing, that lyrical stuff that explores ideas kinda stands out. The reactions are positive or neutral. Sometimes there are cool poems though. Like one guy did an old western ballad in a scraggly voice.
I have a few dozen stories in little mags and journals. They felt important to me when I was just starting out circa 2011/2012. But now I see them as mostly a waste of time. Too much money on submission fees, too much waiting, too much competition, too much ideology and bias.
Thank you, and it certainly did. After many decades as an editor in trade and academic publishing, after publication as a poet in nationally circulated lit mags, after grants and awards of various kinds, I have revived my micro press (formerly for comics and zines, now for poetry chapbooks) and have two books coming out this spring, one by me and one by another poet. And this is all I want to do now. I enjoy the bookmaking process as much as I do writing poems.
Well thought out. Well written. Ty. I don’t submit anymore. I write and self publish. I sell very few but I deeply enjoy the creative process. Ty sir for ur deep insights.
Excellently written. I feel I was arriving at similar conclusions, but certainly not as finely expressed, and now I feel all the more focused in my own journey. Thank you!
You are so right - and you make a good argument for not submitting to lit mags. I was published in several of them in my early days as a poet, but they smack of elitism and condescension.
We're somehow led to believe that appearing in the pages of those publications somehow elevates your work and makes it worthy, while sharing it in other places just signals that you weren't good enough for them. But as you say, literary magazines are really a dime a dozen and anyone can start one and become a lofty arbiter of written work. The point is to get the work out in the world - and really, lit mags aren't a very effective way to do that.
I agree with you that the readership of literary magazines is very limited, and the way to really reach readers is through curation opportunities with a wider readership (such as non-literary magazines, other spaces online, and in-person venues). In addition to a limited scope of readers, literary magazines also generally have a limited range of work that is deemed "acceptable." And even for work within those bounds, the acceptance criteria and rates are quite nebulous and unpredictable, in my experience. There are a handful of journals that do have more wide-ranging and open perspectives on the type of work they are willing to publish, though these are generally not the most prestigious outlets.
Publishing in literary magazines has been a good way for me to connect with other writers, especially when I haven't encountered a lot of like-minded people in my local communities. But I think it helped a lot that I had already written a lot of stuff before I even knew about literary magazines, so I wasn't trying to tailor my work to what would be accepted, but rather submitting the work I had already written that had a chance of publication in those venues (which is always a limited sub-set of everything I write). Writing with the goal of publication in journals (or anywhere!) generally tends to suck the joy out of the creative process, by creating too much preemptive judgment and critical analysis (there can be a place for those, of course, but they have to be secondary or it's no fun).
Just ran into this essay recently , and took some time to work slowly all the way through it. Loved the John Donne Quote!
"stay away from most lit mags"... I totally get that, but as a reader looking for guidance, I'm wondering if you have any specific recommendations outside of the "most"?
I work full time and have kids, so I read as I can, not as I would-- I have enjoyed Image, Plough Quarterly, and Dappled Things with at least some level of regularity--
You come across as being, no, not bitter, but sour.
Is that, like, one degree below bitter?
If you are struggling to differentiate bitter from sour then…
You are a sweetheart. I guess it was too much to hope that Substack would stay troll-free.
Thanks for this beautiful reflection, Joffre. It’s right on point.
Also! This is the first time I’ve seen the whole “for whom the bell tolls” quote and it finally makes sense!
Love it! The entire sermon is quite beautiful, worth looking up.
Such interesting thoughts! I've had pieces published in lit mags and it is a great feeling, but fleeting! I've also had experiences making publications (zines or journals) with friends and writers I admire. This is also fun and edifying. I've had a book of poems published by a press that I didn't have a personal connection with, and that felt validating as a writer-- I sometimes worry that having work published by friends "doesn't count" or that they're just publishing me because they're my friend--which isn't so bad really. haha
We've only been on Substack for a week but it has been so freeing to have an immediate outlet for my work and have creative control over how it's "published" and shared. I am working on writing a novel that I hope to have traditionally published, and while I'm in the writing and querying trenches, I think that sharing on Substack will be much more fun and creatively rewarding than submitting to a bunch of lit mags-- like you said it takes so much time and money and often feels scammy.
Glad to have read your thoughts and to be connected on Substack! Since we're new I'll drop our latest post below. :) My husband's a painter so we're sharing paintings and ponderings--dispatches from our search for the sublime.
https://open.substack.com/pub/pleinairpoetry/p/railcars-and-cosmic-absurdity?r=5bvp5a&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
Yeah the thing is about lit mags, every time I pick one up to read it, I can barely stay awake. What’s the deal there? American ones are worse, and almost all charging to submit? How is that different from a scam? (Currently waiting on approx. 20 rejections into my inbox but fuck if I paid for them!)
Thank you for blessing me with your words here.
I started Spirit in Motion Press (not even a proper press (yet, God willing) but a substack to finally publish my fiction that I've been too scared to for years). This really hit--I do want the community and when I finally build the community (haha) share their works. I honestly don't know what it will look like.
But I'm glad I stumbled across this as I was considering trying to submit to these sort of magazines. I thought they would give me validation. I'm wondering now.
Joffre, what do you think about submitting to lit mags for income? Is it inappropriate or somehow demeaning for the writer to seek out payment for his labors? What you write about this is romantic, and I agree with much of what you say (I usually do!) but what about a guy making some money to pay his car insurance for the family van by selling some short stories?
I think it’s great! At least they’re not charging you processing fees. What I’m a big fan of is commissions.
Nothing here is against writers making money. In fact, if anything, there’s a grift going on.
I have shared poetry at open mics, and found the same thing, that lyrical stuff that explores ideas kinda stands out. The reactions are positive or neutral. Sometimes there are cool poems though. Like one guy did an old western ballad in a scraggly voice.
I have a few dozen stories in little mags and journals. They felt important to me when I was just starting out circa 2011/2012. But now I see them as mostly a waste of time. Too much money on submission fees, too much waiting, too much competition, too much ideology and bias.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts
Thanks for this. Great read, and so well written.
If I may . . . and if I may not, please delete:
https://xpcallahan.substack.com/p/962024-814
Great poem! Thanks for your kind comment, I'm glad the article blessed you.
Thank you, and it certainly did. After many decades as an editor in trade and academic publishing, after publication as a poet in nationally circulated lit mags, after grants and awards of various kinds, I have revived my micro press (formerly for comics and zines, now for poetry chapbooks) and have two books coming out this spring, one by me and one by another poet. And this is all I want to do now. I enjoy the bookmaking process as much as I do writing poems.
Well thought out. Well written. Ty. I don’t submit anymore. I write and self publish. I sell very few but I deeply enjoy the creative process. Ty sir for ur deep insights.
Cheers! I’m glad this was helpful.
Excellently written. I feel I was arriving at similar conclusions, but certainly not as finely expressed, and now I feel all the more focused in my own journey. Thank you!
Wonderful, I’m glad this could be a blessing!
You are so right - and you make a good argument for not submitting to lit mags. I was published in several of them in my early days as a poet, but they smack of elitism and condescension.
We're somehow led to believe that appearing in the pages of those publications somehow elevates your work and makes it worthy, while sharing it in other places just signals that you weren't good enough for them. But as you say, literary magazines are really a dime a dozen and anyone can start one and become a lofty arbiter of written work. The point is to get the work out in the world - and really, lit mags aren't a very effective way to do that.
I agree with you that the readership of literary magazines is very limited, and the way to really reach readers is through curation opportunities with a wider readership (such as non-literary magazines, other spaces online, and in-person venues). In addition to a limited scope of readers, literary magazines also generally have a limited range of work that is deemed "acceptable." And even for work within those bounds, the acceptance criteria and rates are quite nebulous and unpredictable, in my experience. There are a handful of journals that do have more wide-ranging and open perspectives on the type of work they are willing to publish, though these are generally not the most prestigious outlets.
Publishing in literary magazines has been a good way for me to connect with other writers, especially when I haven't encountered a lot of like-minded people in my local communities. But I think it helped a lot that I had already written a lot of stuff before I even knew about literary magazines, so I wasn't trying to tailor my work to what would be accepted, but rather submitting the work I had already written that had a chance of publication in those venues (which is always a limited sub-set of everything I write). Writing with the goal of publication in journals (or anywhere!) generally tends to suck the joy out of the creative process, by creating too much preemptive judgment and critical analysis (there can be a place for those, of course, but they have to be secondary or it's no fun).
Thanks for writing this.